We Are Selling with Lee Woodward
We Are Selling is a weekly podcast about real estate, business and tackling life's challenges. Hosted by renowned real estate industry coach, Lee Woodward, learn from experts in their field and maximise your life.
We Are Selling with Lee Woodward
158 - Lisa Pennell's Journey to Leadership Success With Building Teams
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In this enlightening episode of "We Are Selling," host Lee Woodward sits down with Lisa Pennell, the CEO of Barry Plant in Victoria, to delve into the art and science of building effective teams. With a rich background spanning crisis management, journalism, and real estate leadership, Lisa shares her unique insights on creating and nurturing successful teams in today's competitive environment.
The conversation began with Lisa's journey from an undergrad accountant to a respected leader in the real estate industry. She reflects on her early career experiences and her mother's influence as a journalist and how these shaped her understanding of communication and leadership. As they explore the intricacies of team dynamics, Lisa emphasises the importance of humility and self-awareness in leadership, highlighting the critical fork in the road where ego can take over or collaborative spirit can flourish.
As they discuss the current landscape of the real estate industry, Lisa shares her vision for the future, advocating for improved leadership practices that prioritise integrity, collaboration, and continuous learning. This episode is packed with practical advice and thought-provoking insights to inspire current and aspiring leaders.
Hosted by Lee Woodward
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Hello and welcome back to the podcast we Are Selling. My name's Lee Woodward, the author of the Complete Salesperson Course. Today's podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, nexar. Nexar is a dedicated real estate platform specializing in lead generation and database management of the entire real estate company for BDMs and agents, working as one platform to generate opportunity. Nexar seamlessly integrates into your business systems, allowing you to have an extended solution. Let's get started with this week's episode. This week's episode, and joining us now on the podcast for we Are Selling is Lisa Purnell, the CEO of Barry Plant in Victoria. For all our international listeners. Lisa, welcome aboard. Thank you, happy to be here. We need you here. The world wants to know how to build teams. It's one of your specialties and passions that you have fallen in love with with your career. But we might start there From the beginning. A bit of background about Lisa.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been a long and twisted journey, lee. I began my working career as an undergrad accountant at what was Pricewaterhouse at the time, now PricewaterhouseCoopers. I was studying commerce, spent a couple of years there trying to fit a system that I really didn't fit, and then went on a journey of, I guess, exploration, landing opportunities left you know, left, right and centre, that I probably hadn't anticipated and that have led me to this role.
Speaker 1:Now, lisa, you've worked for some big brands. You've done some very interesting journo work as well. We might even chat about that. That's when I first came across you. Actually, we didn't meet at that time, but you were looking after a mutual client of ours. How was that part of your world? Pr journalism writing how did that become a skill?
Speaker 2:Well, my mother was a journalist, so it was probably bred into me from a young age and I guess in these times, writing, and writing effectively, is a lost art to some degree, and in our industry in particular. So PR I fell into. Brian White, in one of his moments of glory, said you'd be good at that. Ray White had never had a PR department before. It's not something I'd done before and so I jumped into that. I discovered that I had a skill for crisis management. Writing obviously became a big part of that role as well. And when I had my daughter Grace, I had a skill for crisis management. Writing obviously became a big part of that role as well. And when I had my daughter Grace, I had the opportunity to stay home and work from home, set up my own business doing crisis management and writing, and that's really how that journey transpired.
Speaker 1:Now being in crisis management. That prepared you to become a CEO.
Speaker 2:Well, it's one of the things that's prepared me. I'm not sure anything can prepare you to be a CEO. To be frank, it's when you suddenly get to the top of the tree and look around and realise there's no one to go ask, what should I do that all the decisions do land with you and say that was a surprising moment for me. Call me naive, but it's not something that you can prepare for. I don't believe it's something you can only learn on the job through trial and error to some degree.
Speaker 1:Now we're about to get deep into a conversation about building teams and what you've observed through that time. But can I ask you, there seems to be a part of your background that you were in retail. Yes, you did commerce, but you're actually with Optus building teams there. Take us into that.
Speaker 2:So I was one of the very first I'm showing my age now promo girls for Optus when they came to Australia with the mobile network and then ended up in a retail organisation actually with Optus and then Telstra retailers, and again, you know, through being offered opportunities from other people who probably saw things in me that I hadn't necessarily seen in myself. You know, would you like to open this office, Would you like to take the state manager role, et cetera, et cetera, and before you know it, you're the leader. I guess there is a natural leadership tendency in some people and to step into the breach when no one else will, and I guess that's what happened.
Speaker 1:It's definitely a characteristic of yours that you are willing to give it a go. I think in leadership you became very good at building teams, but the people building teams picked you in these teams for some really odd gigs out there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes Could be a movie, actually, if I told you some of the details, I can't stand suffering. To be honest with you, at my fundamental core I really. Fairness, integrity and being kind is really important to me. I guess that's what I enjoyed about the crisis work I could always make the right thing happen in situations where very much the wrong thing had happened, and likewise in running a team, it's really important to have fairness and integrity in the decisions that you make and the way in which you treat people, so I guess there was a natural leaning for me in that respect.
Speaker 1:Many of our listeners out there right now, no matter where they are in the world. They could have come to a point where they've reached capacity, which means there's only so many hours you can throw at it in a week and then you start to get that. You know, you were talented, you were good, everyone loved who you are, but as you got busier, a few complaints have come in, and this is where you need good people around you for a better customer experience, but also just for your own self, to protect your environment, your mental health of what you're doing, because, as we know, in real estate, we're looking after everybody else's challenges. We are the solution, and that can grind on you after a period of time until you get the right people around you. For those people who want to step into building a team and this is that opportunity to hear it from someone who's built many teams and now you're just the leader of the biggest team what would be some of the key deliverables or the key things you've learned or observed about building teams?
Speaker 2:Probably it's easiest to highlight what goes wrong in building teams or when people step into that sort of elevated position. I actually think it's kind of a fork in the road where ego can take over or humility and this community can take over. If ego takes over, you're going to be a manager directing people like factory animals and that's got a very limited lifespan. You'll have big staff turnover. The outcomes will be limited. You're not multiplying yourself.
Speaker 2:If you're able to see that you just have a different role doesn't mean you're more important. If you're able to see that you just have a different role, it doesn't mean you're more important. You don't have power over people in the sense of you know the fiefdom of years gone by. It's about bringing people on the journey, almost. If you can consider it like the coach of a team as opposed to you know the lord of the manor, you know if you could make that distinction. People don't follow the coach because they yell at them as effectively as they do if they feel motivated. If you can create that motivation and inspire people, you can really do anything.
Speaker 1:How interesting when we look at that. I've actually got a friend who works in Hollywood movies and he is a specialist camera person, not filming the camera, he runs the steady camera system that if a bridge is being blown up or a castle or something, and in those situations you get one chance, preparation is everything. But he was sharing with me that, being on a movie set, the movie stars aren't movie stars, they're just all working in a team. They say hello, you don't ask for selfies or anything like that, but in that environment we've got a movie to do here. This is not the red carpet moment, we're all working together and I really like that analogy of okay, we've got a job to do versus do you know who I am? I'm bigger than you'll ever be. There's no room for that and I think that's a really good distinction straight away. Take us into filters and understanding.
Speaker 2:It's interesting the comment that you just made around that behaviour it comes from insecurity, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Because if you're trying, to have power over another human being, it's because you don't feel like you have power without that. Having empathy around that for other leaders, you know to understand. A lot of people feel like imposters coming back to your original statement particularly when they first start leading, because they think I've got the job. Therefore I need to perform from the get-go and that means I've got to run around telling everyone what to do. What was that person's lived experience? We would all behave that way if we had that experience. But again, I think there is always a fork in the road with behaviour. Are you going to choose ego or are you going to choose awareness? Because if you're going to have awareness, no one's perfect. No one knows everything. You're not better than anyone else. Just because you have a bigger job or you get paid more doesn't make you more important. Yes, you might have a role that's more critical to the organisation, but the minute you stop that role, you're not important. It's not you, it's the role, and I think making that distinction is critical.
Speaker 1:How powerful and who's going to play that role. Actually, before we came on air, you and I were just chatting about things going on in the world and I was sharing with you a story about Sir Alex Ferguson, the greatest leader and manager of the Manchester United Football Club, and how he had to move on certain key players who people in normal employment say we can't get rid of them. They bring in millions a year and they've had to move them on for the benefit of others. And that brings me back to that point of an incredible thing mentioned on a podcast about when someone goes, someone grows. It is just a role. It's not that person and if that person's not here because one day they're not going to be here but that role's got to be fulfilled. And you seem to be a person that gives people a chance and you've mentioned to me you're very big on safety. Just share that with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm fascinated by neurology, as we were talking about before, and I think you know the fight or flight instinct is really important to remember. If someone's in fight or flight because they don't feel safe, they're actually not thinking as a human being, they're thinking as a you know a mammalian or a lizard from past times, and you're not going to get the best out of somebody because they're actually not thinking clearly. They're triggered into a state that you know is not at all aware. You're looking for that self-awareness where people can look critically at their work, at themselves, at how they're impacting their teammates, and I think you know, segueing a little bit, impact versus intention is the biggest mistake that leaders make. Impact versus intention. Yes, I love this. Take me into that. Okay, let's unpack that. So your intention is to drive along the street and you got distracted by something and you looked to the side and you ran over a kid's bike. I'll make it the bike rather than the kid, for the sake of the PC, thank you.
Speaker 1:It's a happy show.
Speaker 2:And you jump out of the car and you go. I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that it actually doesn't matter. You destroyed the bike, so it's kind of pointless. Your intention wasn't to destroy the bike of pointless. Your intention wasn't to destroy the bike Luckily it wasn't the child but you did so it actually doesn't matter. You need to stop and say, okay, well, the learning from that is I need to pay attention when I'm driving and not look to the side. That's on me. That's not on the kid, not on the bike, not on the bird, that's on me. And I think it's really important for leaders in particular, every human being, but I think every leader to look at what they did. What they did to contribute to anything that happens, whether it's good or bad, and particularly the bad, because that's where the learning is. How did I impact you? Was it what I intended? If not, go back to the drawing board.
Speaker 1:I love that. Take us into your view on tasking and skills in a team.
Speaker 2:Well, anything can be taught, is my opinion. We were talking before about one of my most recent epiphanies, and that is a very simple determination as to whether someone's going to survive, if you like, in a role, or thrive in a role is I have to look objectively at. Are they lacking the skills or are they lacking the motivation? Now, if it is a lack of motivation, have I created enough of safety? Is there incentive? Are they inspired? Is this the journey that they should be on? If they have the motivation and not the skills, that's the best raw material, because we can teach and develop people, and that's exciting for them too. Motivation's very hard to bring in if it's not there inherently.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that we can look at all the different occupations in the world, and the music industry fascinates me when you've got classically trained people who went to music school and technically have got greater skills, and then we've got Mick Jagger at 72, still doing stadiums. Yes, I saw the greatest thing on Facebook where they had a clip of Joe Barton walking and tumbling and then Mick Jagger taking the stadium and they're the same age. There's something about the fire in you that can overdo the skills versus but I'm the most qualified, but do you really want to do it?
Speaker 2:Well and again. That's where people can get too hung up on. I've got to be the best at. Underneath it all, can you connect with other human beings? I can stand here and try and impress you. That's pointless for you and pointless for me. Or we can stand here and connect with each other and actually share something that maybe someone else will get something from. I hope so. Mick Jagger loves music. He's very passionate and he's a performer. He connects with people. He still exercises every day so he can jump around on stage. He's acting with purpose. It's interesting.
Speaker 2:I see a lot of young performers these days because there's not as much live performance opportunity for them and they'll stand in front of the microphone. You can clearly see they're just trying to be perfect in their vocalization and it's almost like an ego thing of look at me. No one wants to look at a singer standing in front of a microphone, not moving, singing perfectly. They want to see you bouncing around the stage, connecting. That's visually appealing. That's why we go to live music instead of pressing play on Spotify. Right, so it's connection. It's always connection. It comes back to that.
Speaker 1:And you look at the greatest bands in the world, they're a team. Yeah, they've all got their role. I remember a very famous thing from Mick Jagger saying to Charlie Watts that you are my drummer and he said no, no, no, no, you are my singer, Meaning they were both as equally as important One's out the back, one's out front. I think we can draw a lot from that, because in a team it doesn't matter what you're doing, we're all required, and in a real estate office, from reception to owner, there is no hierarchy to that. Someone's got to do the reception. It's so important. And I think when we start to see people at different levels, that's when the team falls apart and the members want to move on.
Speaker 2:Let's play that music analogy out a little bit further, lee. So in the analogy of the Rolling Stones, no one's conducting that band. It relies on each person individually contributing their piece. And you know as a live musician, as I know personally, there's nothing better than falling back into that. You know, teamwork, if you like the other version of live music will be with the conductor, but that's not a yelling, shouting thing, that's a guiding thing, because there's so many different elements to the music and everyone's paying attention and everyone wants to follow that leader. But there's nothing violent about it. There's no levels. The conductor's not more important than the, you know, the flutist or whatever the term will be. So playing out that analogy too. These truisms are the case across all aspects of life.
Speaker 1:When we look at the current situation of the Australian real estate industry, we know what's happened, we get it. But as we look forward, especially as a modern leader, what do you see next required in the team building space of the real estate industry and the real estate community? What do you think people need to bring onto their radar, their attention, to have a better future?
Speaker 2:Again, self-awareness. You have to be aware and willing to learn as a leader. I believe the biggest gap in our industry is leadership. A lot of people in our industry who run real estate businesses have not been exposed to anything other than real estate sales. They elevate into a role where they then own the office and, as I say, they don't know what happens in the rest of the world. If they were treated poorly by their previous leader, they're replicating that same behaviour and the cycle continues. So I think there's a real opportunity and certainly in our group it's a live discussion that our biggest opportunity is in all of us becoming better leaders, running better teams, and that way we will service our customers even better than we do today.
Speaker 1:Well, what an amazing moment of time of recording. No one ever knows where I am with the cheeseboard paddle, by the way, Lisa.
Speaker 2:Which is very innovative.
Speaker 1:It is Well, you know, it's a system, it's an efficiency and wherever I go, it works.
Speaker 2:Totally it impressive and, again, this is unique to you. It's curated to solve a problem that you had, and I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think for everyone watch your cheeseboard paddle, because that's your equipment, that's your rig. When the stones go on stage, everyone's got to make sure their part's right. You don't just. Oh well, it's nothing to do with me, it's everything to do with you, because the expected behaviour is you will nail this, this will happen, even this recording. I mean, a lot of people think, in podcasting and so forth, that you know you must take all these attempts to do it. They are listening to a live recording. We have not stopped once, but it's expected behaviour that for two people at our level, that should be the way it is. Otherwise, get off the podcast.
Speaker 1:Yep, with the teams coming in today because time recording. We're in the beautiful renovated Barry Plant training room. We have 53 leaders coming into the training rooms today, or the collaboration room, as I'm going to call it. I didn't have a chance to say this to you, lisa, but I absolutely love the room. Great, I started my life in these rooms and unfortunately then or not unfortunately you're doing big stages all the time and no one talks to you, whereas today we get to. How do you feel about that? And what would you do next? And in progressive learning, even for your own leaders. Coming in today, what do you want to see your team do with their teams?
Speaker 2:Great question, look, and I'm going to be sitting in with your session as well, lee, because, despite my no, haggling no haggling, no pressure.
Speaker 2:Despite my long history in running teams, I don't doubt I'll hear something today that will make me think. In fact, when I saw you on stage at Kickstart, you gave me a line from the day that you can't read the label from the inside of the jar the day that you can't read the label from the inside of the jar and that stuck with me. I'll hear something today that, equally, will give me another epiphany. I love that. It's a learning journey. What do I want for our leaders? I want a similar. I want to keep alive this spirit of curiosity because, again, there's no rule book. Oh, here's how to be a good leader. Everyone has to adapt and become a good leader, with their own filters, their own life experiences, their own unique abilities and skill sets and whatever else. So it's how can I adapt what I learn with awareness and get better and better every single day? Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does, lisa. I get to meet a lot of CEOs due to my profession and you're very comfortable in your own self in doing this role, and I remember when you were appointed I thought, wow, there you go, and I love seeing people appointed and I love seeing change in direction in this industry after being in it so long. But only two weeks ago I was working with a senior CEO like 30 years and he shared with me in a podcast, well, my first four years of being a CEO. I had no idea what I was doing. I just thought I'd know what I was doing, but I didn't.
Speaker 1:And anything is a learned thing, and I think today people have this expectation that they're going to be brilliant in day one. Yet you've got to do the work and let yourself take the time to learn. Whatever it is you're doing, I do believe you have to be your own mechanic. Today. You've got to know how these things all come together, versus someone else will do that for me, and actually I want to write the book one day. Someone's got to do the work at some point and, being a leader, you've got to work harder than anyone. What's your view on that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think you're going to a new role. There's a lot of learning. I don't know how many times I've said I was on a very steep learning curve as a new CEO.
Speaker 1:Did you want to be a CEO? Was that on the list?
Speaker 2:I don't know the answer to that question, lee. I go where the charm takes me, so the opportunity arose. You know, I was leaving the industry. As I've said many times before, I was pretty much done with the ethics and the way in which this industry operates, and certainly in franchising, and so when Mike McCarthy put that offer to me, it kind of took me a little bit by surprise, to be honest.
Speaker 1:What was your first thought.
Speaker 2:Well, it happened very much by synchronicity. I had planned to move back to Melbourne when and my daughter was very keen to move back when she turned, or move here when she turned 18. She'd just finished her HSC in New South Wales, so it was.
Speaker 1:And now studying law.
Speaker 2:Now studying law yes, wow, yep yep Got a lawyer in the family, and so it kind of all happened very much through synchronicity. So it felt like, when things happen like that, my belief is that that's the journey I should take. And so I've taken that journey, far more challenging than I expected, but I don't think that would be any unusual situation. You never know what you're going to do and it's like parenting until you have a child you don't actually understand how hard it's going to be. But again, I've made no secret that I am on a learning curve and I think my learning curve is going to continue for the rest of my life. So I don't expect that I'll get everything right, but I'll certainly make things right when I get them wrong. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:It does. It makes perfect sense, and thank you for being so open about that. Final question yes, what's two things you're passionate about that you want to bring to the Barry Plant Group, which is a very famous Victorian company, and BP, for you, stands for big plans. What do you want to bring to the table? What do you want to see the group do I?
Speaker 2:think there's some really beautiful things about this group and the culture of this group that are really not known broadly and I think it's been a sleeper brand through some of the preceding years before I took the group on, and so I really want to elevate the truth of this brand so that other people in our industry who want to work in a brand that values integrity and doesn't just talk about it or put it on the wall, this is a community that they would be welcomed in and would succeed in. So it's all about that really for me. The other thing is in bringing systems and process that really help our existing network elevate. I think there's a real opportunity for us existing network elevate. I think there's a real opportunity for us and certainly we're on a great technology journey in that sense, having rebranded the business and sort of updated the value offering. This is what it's all about growth this year.
Speaker 1:Brilliant answer. And I was at Kickstart and I'd come from another event that morning and I arrived at the Sofitel and this thing was rock concert. It was going nuts in there. There's people everywhere and I was like wow. But I've got to tell you I loved the mix of the audience, male to female. Some great young talent took the stage and shared their story of how they'd been mentored by some of the great people in this group and play it down the line is the biggest thing in teams ever. Absolutely Like if you can share that with someone and they do better from it. We have a team. But yeah, you've got some great young talent coming through.
Speaker 2:And you know it's funny. You mentioned that because, as our guys were taking the stage and talking with this enormous humility that this group has, you know, which is something I haven't experienced before in other groups, with the you know, the top of the top I actually leant over to Mike and I whispered. This is why I'm here, because to see our top people on stage sharing with such openness and no ego not to get up and grandstand, but to actually genuinely want to share the things that they've learned with no reservation, to me that's a really unusual thing in our game. You know, I feel entrusted with bringing that truth to our industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a big one for me Two weeks before I was in the States and I saw similar people of a similar age speaking differently. And then I landed in Victoria Barry Plant and saw some street players really sharing how they protect the community and I really liked the difference that I saw of look at me, to look at the experience we're providing our customer.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that you could feel that, Lee.
Speaker 1:Well, within two weeks. Well, I went from minus 17 to 40 degrees. There's one temperature change, but whenever someone's communicating, is it ego or info? Is that fork in the road? But they were talking about what they'd done on this property to get this result, and I did mention that day on the stage. It's important you move away from testimonial to experience. What experience are we bringing into the community that we serve? And the real estate community is everything. That's who we serve and what we do. But I hadn't met those young people before, whereas some of your seniors have been to the Complete Salesperson course for years and so forth. But seeing it played down the line was awesome for me.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the very special things about this group. I'm doing auction school at the moment, which is something we run every year, but I'm a student in auction school this year. I wanted to walk the walk and I've always been fascinated by auction, so I wanted to sit in the class and, understanding that most of our directors have been through auction school with Mark Lynch, who's been with our group for, you know, 18 years now and just feeling what that experience is like, the bonding with the other people in the room, and knowing that you know a good number of the people that are going through this experience with me are our future directors. How exciting, what a feeling it is exciting. I can't express to you how special that is.
Speaker 1:And no one thing happens in isolation, Lisa. So I'm going to bring something up here that someone may not know. No one knows about you. I'm scared. It's okay, it's all right, Hang in there and we're live. No edits. So if no one thing happens in isolation, here you are in auction school and some of the younger ones come through you know, Lisa's an executive.
Speaker 1:She couldn't front a crowd of a street and how would she go doing that? But, lisa, you have been a performer for many years and the front person of singing in the music industry, which is no different to being an auctioneer working a crowd understanding, but not many people would have known you were a lead singer.
Speaker 2:That's right and it's why you'll always see me on stage. I've got to have a hand told. It's many years of habit forming. I can't do the Madonna style face, mic, lapel, mic. Yeah, it's a very comfortable place for me to be and I do love connecting with audiences in that way on a grand scale. So, yeah, perhaps I will be an auctioneer post-CEO, who knows?
Speaker 1:But isn't it interesting? And for anyone listening to this, their children's done music, or you know one thing about real estate that's very important you've got to hire people that are not afraid of people and music's wonderful for that. Or anyone who can sing karaoke can be in real estate because you've got to be around people. It was actually Chris Hanley that said that to me. Lee, you've got to hire people that aren't afraid of people. But the fact you've got those skills and when did you first get into music?
Speaker 2:Oh, 17, I think, was when I first admitted my dream. I think I'd always, you know, secretly had the desire, but it was probably 17 when I started performing. And it's interesting, you talk about trained versus untrained. I did try to have singing lessons a couple of times and I decided it took me too much out of my heart and into my head and I'm a performer. I would say I'm a performer more than a singer. I don't think I've got the world's best voice, but I love connecting with people. So I don't want to be in my head thinking about you know what I'm doing technically. I want to be in my heart communicating how I feel in that moment in the song, and that is very much how I approach, you know, approach being on stage. I know in the times when I've overthought what I'm going to say, I'm stilted. If I can speak from the heart and allow it to come naturally, it's much more authentic.
Speaker 1:Which is what you're doing now as a CEO.
Speaker 2:Yes, yep, it's not anything. That's what I say. It's all about connection and taking the time to be present. You know what time is it? It's now, always. Now, this moment's the only moment.
Speaker 1:Lisa Pennell a fantastic interview and thank you for sharing your story and we look forward to hearing from you in the future. Thank you, lee. Today's episode of we Are Selling was brought to you by Nexar. Nexar is the platform that is now partnering and delivering best-in-class real estate growth solutions that continue to perform over time. The Nexar platform has now partnered with some of our leading principals and teams in Australia. They are assisting with the lead generation engine of the company, agent loyalty and the growth of the rent roll through connective communication. Nexar is doing the heavy lifting on nurturing your database to generate a pipeline for your agents and BDMs to convert to listings, sales and new managements. Check the show notes and the link to episode 116, where there was a feature interview with Mr Mark Kentwell. Thank you for listening. I look forward to speaking to you next week. My name's Lee Woodward Goodbye.